In this captivating episode of 'Finding the Guardian of Your Soul,' Lisa and Benjamin unravel the complex web of commitment phobia in men. The conversation delves deep into the heart of why so many men run when they find a relationship that has the potential to be real and enduring. From the fear of sacrificing independence to the daunting quest for perfection, they dissect the five core reasons that keep men teetering on the edge of commitment. Lisa and Benjamin share intimate anecdotes highlighting how emotional vulnerability and the need for space have been recurring themes in their relationships over the years. They discuss ways that they were resistant to and struggled with these concepts and their journey to a healthy, loving relationship. Explore how they've triumphed over previous relationship traumas and the delicate dance of emotional availability, boundaries, and unconditional love. Join us as they share a dual perspective on the landscape of modern masculinity, forge a path through the misconceptions, and shed light on how men and women can embrace commitment without losing themselves. This is an episode you don't want to miss.
What You’ll Hear In This Episode:
- The paradox of choice and fear of choosing the wrong partner
- Waiting for perfection
- Fear of losing freedom and concerns over reduced time for personal interests and social circles
- Anxiety about committing to one partner and losing the excitement of multiple intimacies
- The desire for mental and emotional space within a relationship
- The impact of childhood and parental relationship models
- How past relationship traumas can influence views on commitment
- The difficulty of opening up emotionally after being deeply hurt
- The challenge of overcoming feelings of failure from previous relationships
- The struggle with emotional openness and vulnerability
- The importance of communication skills in fostering a healthy relationship
- Mirroring masculinity, being playful, and supportive in relationships
- Adapting a forgiving, drama-free, and patient approach
- Issues related to timing, career aspirations, and personal growth
- The feeling of being diminished in the presence of a highly successful partner
Lisa Shield:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Getting Inside the Right Male Mind, this one right here. I'm Lisa Shield.
Benjamin Shield:
And I'm Benjamin Shield.
Lisa Shield:
We are so happy to be able to spend this time with you. Today we're going to talk about unraveling the mystery of why men are reluctant to commit something that is so important for women to know is that just because a man isn't rushing into a commitment or even he's hesitant to commit, it doesn't mean he's avoidant or emotionally unavailable. There are very real reasons why men see commitment differently from women. And because we want a commitment so badly. Most women, not all, but most women really want a long term commitment and or marriage to a partner. Men do not go through their lives thinking, oh, I can't wait to find the right woman and commit and get married for life. To a man, that's kind of sounds until he meets the right woman, like a death sentence, right? So let's dive in because it is so important that you all understand what is really going on in the male mind. And when you meet a great guy like this one here, who I think is a very fine example, you want to be able to navigate this whole idea of commitment gracefully so that you don't turn a man off and push him away, but you give him the time and the space to come towards you, get to know you and ease into this idea of a committed relationship.
Lisa Shield:
So, babe, let's talk about that. What are some of the reasons why men fear commitment?
Benjamin Shield:
One reason is that they might fear losing their freedom, their independence. Some men feel that they may be losing their independence, and they're concerned about having less time for their interests and friends. They're concerned that a relationship may make his life smaller rather than bigger. And he's also afraid that entering a relationship, he may be living someone else's dream.
Lisa Shield:
Yes. So talk about this idea of freedom. It's important to everybody that we have freedom, but there's a big difference, I think, for women in terms of having freedom, and for men, it's just this core value that giving up his freedom. What will he lose if a man gives up his freedom?
Benjamin Shield:
Well, he's been a bachelor, and so he's probably had intimate relationships with different women. Making a commitment, a lifelong commitment, a monogamous commitment, means this is the person you're going to be with intimately for the rest of your life, and most likely only this person. So he's maybe afraid that he won't have that lust in his life or that that lust may diminish with time.
Lisa Shield:
And why. Let's go back. I think the loss of freedom goes all the way back to a man's relationship with his mother.
Benjamin Shield:
Well, right. I think anyone that's experienced, teenagers, ourselves included, male and female. But there's a lot, particularly with men or boys, there's a definite separation from being mothered. And to reenter that possibility is still defying.
Lisa Shield:
Still not a word you often drop into conversation, FYI. So the idea of being controlled by a woman or mothered or smothered or having to answer to a woman is a real turn off for a man. I think women, one of the things, distinctions I know between men and women is that a woman, if somebody, if her girlfriend said, hey, would you and Benjamin like to go on a double date this weekend? A woman would say, well, let me check with Benjamin and see what's going on. A man would typically say, oh, yeah, sure. And he would never want to give his friend the impression that he has to check with his girlfriend or his wife. It's almost like having to ask mom if it's okay, and he might go back. And, you know, Jack asked if we'd like to get together for dinner on Saturday. And I would say, well, we already have plans.
Lisa Shield:
I made plans with Susan, or I was going to ask you about Susan, but then you would say, great, and then you just go back to Jack and know, we got plans, but we could do it someday. But you would not say, let me check with my wife or whatever.
Benjamin Shield:
I would.
Lisa Shield:
But many guys wouldn't.
Benjamin Shield:
Right.
Lisa Shield:
They wouldn't. It would be weird to them.
Benjamin Shield:
Right. It would mean that they were secondary or subservient in the relationship where they had to get permission.
Lisa Shield:
Well, what does a woman do? Because I get it. I'm a woman, and I totally get how women think. And for us, we want to be a couple. We want to be an us. And this idea that you're afraid of losing your freedom as a woman, how would I artfully navigate that with a man without making him feel mothered or smothered or controlled?
Benjamin Shield:
Well, I think continually reflecting back and asking, how can I make your life bigger?
Lisa Shield:
Well, that's not something you would say in normal, hey, Benjamin, how can I make your life bigger? Right.
Benjamin Shield:
Well, I think it's supporting his interest, giving him space. We've told the story before of when we moved into our house in Los Angeles. We're in Santa Fe now. But I was really concerned about losing my freedom, my space. I fully committed to our relationship. And I had a treatment room there for my therapy practice. And you put in a microwave, a cable tv, a refrigerator, I don't know what else. And the fact that you did that made me feel that I didn't need it anymore.
Benjamin Shield:
So out went the microwave and everything else because I knew that you would support me.
Lisa Shield:
Well. And I also think that something that women need to understand is that space is. It can be mental space and emotional space within a close relationship. So one of the ways that I give you space is I know your moods. I know when you're tired. I know that you like to be able to stand in the kitchen by yourself and eat and not be disturbed.
Benjamin Shield:
It's not just eating, but it's catching up with the day and letting the day catch up with me because so much happens and there's so much information and even so much emotion that one can't process it or I can't process in real time. So I need that time at the end of the day or maybe even during the day just to catch up with things.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. On the other side of all of this is that you almost always make me feel welcome. I remember in the early stages of our relationship when I would come in, you might be working or studying or whatever, answering emails, and I would walk into your office, you never said, don't interrupt me or I'm busy. You never pushed me away. And so it made me feel, I mean, I always, in the beginning, especially felt very cautious about coming in when you were in a room doing something on your own. But you've always been so welcoming. And both of us, when we do come into each other's offices, we try to stop what we're doing and give each other our full attention. So we do that often enough.
Lisa Shield:
I think that that builds a level of safety and integrity within the relationship so that we're not clingy or needy or whatever. And if you are needing space, whatever I'm doing, whatever it is, that can wait if you're not, because I know you'll come back and be available. It's just in that moment you're not.
Benjamin Shield:
And we don't take it personally.
Lisa Shield:
No, I mean, it was like I jumped on you when we were setting up to do this talk because we had a few minutes and we were testing the sound and I quickly apologized, but I kind of said, wait a.
Benjamin Shield:
Minute, and I didn't take it personally because.
Lisa Shield:
No. And it happens rarely. It happens rarely. And I never check your comings and goings. And if you want to go spend time with a friend or have a dinner or do something. I want you to do whatever it is you want to do.
Benjamin Shield:
A man never wants to feel like he's on a leash.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. And I think some women, unfortunately, out of insecurity or past hurts, betrayals, they do that. They put a man on a short leash and it's suffocating.
Benjamin Shield:
Oh, terrible. Terrible.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. So what else?
Benjamin Shield:
Well, I think that there aren't a lot of good role models out there for men or women. But speaking about men, there aren't a lot of positive role models of healthy, committed relationships, whether it's in their family or in their social circles. Some may not. Men might not be able to see the value or understand how to create a healthy relationship. They may not have the communication skills or the emotional availability to have a. That's necessary for a healthy long term relationship.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. I mean, I think that's another thing, is that when we've seen our parents and the way your parents bickered and your mother constantly shut your father down, in all the time that I knew your parents, I think I only really heard your dad speak up a handful of times. If that your mother would talk over him, she had to be the center of attention.
Benjamin Shield:
Neither one of us had positive role models in our family.
Lisa Shield:
Well, in mine, we're a nightmare. We're a nightmare. And my mother had every right to be angry at my father. I mean, he was a womanizer, he was not faithful. And I think she was really angry.
Benjamin Shield:
So let's say that a young man in late twenty s, thirty s, or really any age group, looks around at his cohorts, looks around at his friends or colleagues and he hears a lot of like, oh my gosh, this is making me miserable. And it's because those people never learned the skills, whether from personal growth coaching, they just didn't have the skills for a relationship. So this poor gentleman is looking around him and say, my gosh, I've dodged a bullet.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. And so many people, women and men alike, will say, I'd rather be alone than be in the wrong relationship. And I think that's especially if you've been in a bad relationship where you tried so hard to work things out and you just couldn't. I used to think that if you just talked enough, you'd had to reach a consensus.
Benjamin Shield:
But the power of the volume of words.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah, I saw that they can actually push somebody out a door. Somebody can just be saturated.
Benjamin Shield:
I was guilty of that a long time ago. It must be at least 25 well, more than 25 years ago, but someone was just talking and talking and talking, and consciously or unconsciously, I found myself moving towards the door, and she saw that, but I couldn't take the volume of words.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah, it's overwhelming. And women don't get that. Now that I understand men so much better than I did when I was younger, I can only imagine. I mean, I'm horrified when I think about how I was in past relationships. I doubt that men could think around me. I didn't give them the space. And, in fact, I would only listen to your perspective so that I could then give you mine.
Benjamin Shield:
You'd wait for me to finish?
Lisa Shield:
Yeah, because then I just wanted to re explain what I already explained 20 times. Which men love that, by the way. What else? What are some other reasons why men fear commitment?
Benjamin Shield:
Well, they've had bad experiences. They've had past relationship trauma. He may have had negative experiences that can make him hesitant to commit again. He may fear a repeat of past pain, disappointment, heartbreak, and there may have been conflicts, trust issues, as I say, heartbreaks. And this is really the importance of coaching, of therapy, but of coaching, of learning new ways, of not repeating things that haven't worked in the past, but not knowing other ways to engage.
Lisa Shield:
Well. And I think that it's so easy for women to feel like we're the only victims because in some ways, we are the weaker sex. I mean, maybe women listening don't want to hear that, but there are ways in which men. It still is a man's world. And look at the metoo movement. I don't need to say anything more, but at the same time, men have been hurt so deeply, and we have a client that's in our mastermind group who we just spoke to, and she's dating a wonderful man. We talked to her yesterday, but he was so hurt in his marriage, and he went to therapy. He hasn't been able to see his own children as a result, because she's maligned the children against him.
Lisa Shield:
And men suffer, too. And they also. I think women don't realize that men often, no matter what happens in a marriage, most men, if they married a woman, it was because they loved her and they wanted at some point, to make it work. And no matter what happened, even if he was the one who cheated, even if it was his fault that the relationship didn't work, he was too involved in his career. He didn't pay her enough attention. Whatever it was, a man feels like a failure and that he broke an oath.
Benjamin Shield:
Oh, that's how I felt after my first marriage, I felt like I made a promise that I broke and it was a failure, and I could see my part in it, certainly. So to go back and having broken that unbreakable vow and think that this is sacred and having broken that sacred commitment, a man can feel like failure. He can feel like he's not worthy of another relationship. He may not want to take the chance that this one isn't going to work out either.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. So that's another reason why, especially a man who has already been married. I mean, he may have failed just in other relationships, but especially for men who've already been married and paid a high price mentally, emotionally, spiritually, they may hesitate. You were hesitant to want to get remarried?
Benjamin Shield:
I had a very brief second marriage, and we didn't really know each other. She lived in Chicago, I lived in Los Angeles, and we just saw each other maybe every other weekend, and we really didn't know each other. And neither one of us had the skills for marriage. Neither one of us really. We thought we were evolved with personal growth, but personal growth and actually being skilled in relationship are sometimes two different things. And sometimes people feel that they're ready for a relationship because they've done all this work, but they haven't really done the work of relationship, which can only happen in a relationship.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah, it's funny. I was talking to a client yesterday about this, and this is a person who is extraordinarily evolved. I mean, she has done so much work on herself, and I admire the person she is, the way she takes ownership of her choices and the outcomes. And she's an extraordinary, extraordinary, admirable person. And we were talking about how all of that, like the ultimate test of all of that personal growth is relationship, but specifically romantic relationship. And that's where you really get to see how evolved you are.
Benjamin Shield:
And I think the paradox is that the troubled relationships you and I have had in the past have led to this healthy relationship we have now. Because if we didn't have those relationships, we wouldn't understand what giving, what boundaries, what unconditional love is for seeing what it's like not having those things. Yeah, we went in wide eyed knowing what we wanted to create and which we've done for over 21 years now.
Lisa Shield:
It's so true. And what I said to this client is it's such a blessing to be as self aware as she is and to have been able to work through some of these deeper, darker aspects of self with other people so that she doesn't have to carry that now into a new relationship. And that's the beauty. I think one of the things with us, and I think we see this with so many of our clients who find the guardians of their souls, is that we don't want anything from each other. We just want everything for each other. We want for each other's happiness and well being. I can provide so much of what I need for myself. It's not that I need anybody to do many, many things for me, but our joy is in being there for each other and creating a loving, open space for both of us to flourish.
Lisa Shield:
So that's our greatest joy. And we never. I mean, it's almost like in any moment, if something doesn't work for you, it's like, okay, let's don't do it. Or if something doesn't work for me, it's like, all right, great, let's do something else, or let's just stay home. Or sometimes I can see where after a long week or something, you want to air me out and get me out of the house because I can get a little closeted here, and I'll look in your eyes and just see how tired you are by airing out.
Benjamin Shield:
Meaning take you out to a nice restaurant?
Lisa Shield:
Yes.
Benjamin Shield:
Take you out to a movie?
Lisa Shield:
Yeah. Just do something to get me out and get a little change of venue, even if I don't know I need it. You sometimes think, oh, we got to get you out of here, and I'll look in your eyes sometimes, and it's like I can see how exhausted you are or that you may be hurting or whatever. It's a dance. It's a beautiful dance. So there isn't ever a need for us not to want to be connected and committed. It's an unusual thing, and it's so hard to describe. People don't really realize you have to be fierce.
Lisa Shield:
This is what I was sharing with our client, was that I so admire the way she's fierce. I mean, I see a lot of myself in her, because really, if you're going to learn how to do relationship and create this beautiful open space where a man really will come in and will want to commit to you, you have to be fierce and face your neediness, your insecurities, the desperation, the clinginess, the mothering, the smothering. All of us, we have these qualities. And it's so hard to look in that mirror and see in these failed relationships, to step back and see your part. And sometimes it's really ugly. So what else, babe? Trauma is the one that you said.
Benjamin Shield:
Yeah. And sometimes a man just isn't ready to settle down. Some men may feel they haven't experienced enough in life to settle down, whether it's travel. And they're concerned that one person may, like, vacation in a campervan and the other may want four or five star hotels, and it may not be compatible. They're interested in career advancement, particularly at certain ages, certain stages, and personal growth that they want to do on their own. For some, career ambitions and other life goals might take a priority over a committed relationship, no matter how great the woman is. Yeah.
Lisa Shield:
And I think one thing that women like, if I could put a frame around something, because this is a big one, timing for men can be everything. Everything. A man can meet the most incredibly wonderful woman, and he will know it. He can go on a date with her. He can say, that is the kind of woman I would marry if and when I'm ready. And a lot of times they won't ask a woman on another date, even if they think she's fabulous, no matter. It may be because she's so wonderful that he won't ask her on another date.
Benjamin Shield:
Yeah. And some men may feel that dating is like a slow train that begins to build up momentum, that it leads to a second date. And if there's a third or fourth or fifth date, it's discussing, do you want to come over, meet my family for thanksgiving? Should we go on a weekend here? And it becomes a relationship? So some men are terrified of dating, or at least going past the first date. And as you say, a lot of women are puzzled that the first date went great. It was wonderful, and I got ghosted, or he just said it wasn't a match, and he may have just been terrified of a train that's building momentum that becomes harder and harder to stop.
Lisa Shield:
Well, and some women are so accomplished and so much more accomplished than many men, and it may not be at the same age. Right. Like, they could be accomplished, like, very far advanced in their career. They could be earning a wonderful income. They could be doing a lot of personal growth, work and development. And women can multitask. We can do many things simultaneously. But with men, they tend to do one thing at a time.
Lisa Shield:
They tend to focus on their career, and they may not even think to go to see a therapist or take a personal growth course or whatever. Maybe there's a big breakup or a life event that gets them into therapy or where they find themselves going through a depression, and they reach out for some help. But with women, we're just doing it all. And so a man can meet a woman like that. I actually met a guy like that when I was dating one of the two second dates I went, guy. We went on two dates, and I was working, I think, with don Miguel at the time.
Benjamin Shield:
Don Miguel and Ruiz, who were at the four green.
Lisa Shield:
Yeah, I was in a community, toltec community, and I was part of this wonderful group of people who were hanging out with Miguel. And he had written the four agreements, and I shared, because it was a big part of what was going on with me at the time. I shared on our second date about the four agreements. And then I suggested that he read the book, or I said, you might want to read it. It's life changing. And the next day, he called me and he said, I was out of my league in my last relationship. And he said, I feel that I would be out of my league with you. He said, you're way further along than I am in some of these areas.
Lisa Shield:
And he said, I promised myself I wouldn't do that again, seriously. So he had enough self awareness and clarity to say that. But I would guess that so many women just blow men away, and those men sit there and they think, oh, my God, I just couldn't even keep up with her or even catch up to her.
Benjamin Shield:
Yeah. And he would feel diminished. He wouldn't feel like he's the man.
Lisa Shield:
In the relationship or like he has anything to really offer her or teach her. And I know when I dated, I probably overwhelmed men. There were things in my life that had been travel. I had traveled a lot for somebody in those days when I had been around the world, and I had seen a lot, and I had lived a pretty wonderful life, a pretty unusual life for somebody of my generation. And I think I just kind of was speaking way over many men's heads where they just were like, what can I show her? What are we going to discover together? And I think I kind of left them in the dust. And so many women do that. They have so much going on. One of the things you talk about, you write the profiles for the women in our program, and one of the things you talk about is you talk about how you have to take out a lot of the information, because some of these women's lives are so full, they've got so much going on, that even if a man read the profile and said, oh, my God, she sounds like an amazing woman, he'd be like, I couldn't keep up with her, or.
Benjamin Shield:
Where could I fit in? Yeah, I take out words like adjectives describing themselves as independent or things and things that they enjoy doing but are solitary. So a guy can appreciate a woman who's like, wow, she loves to read all the time. Where do I fit in? I want to be in a relationship at this point. That's why I'm looking.
Lisa Shield:
I remember this is kind of an aside, but we were on a group call with our mastermind, and one of the women was talking about meeting people in real life, not online. And I said, well, what are some of the suggestions? What are some of the things that you would do? Where would you go to meet men? I'd love to hear some ideas. And one of the other women said, oh, well, I would go take a pottery. And we were like, well, we think maybe things where you're going to meet those high caliber men that you're looking, oh, well, there's a lot. You'd be surprised how many men are in a pottery class. And I'm like, are they wearing Birkenstocks? And do they have man buttons? Because I don't know if that's the guy that you're looking for. So, yeah, those are the kinds of things that women fill their lives with, all kinds of activities and things. But you've got to look for things where you're going to meet men who are on your level.
Lisa Shield:
All right, what else?
Benjamin Shield:
Well, I think a big one is, particularly in the age of the Internet, where there's the paradox of choice. There are so many choices, is choosing fear of choosing the wrong one. Men might worry about whether they're choosing the right partner for a lifetime commitment. And this could be paralyzing because they don't know if I'm starting to date this person, but if I stay online, I might find someone better, and I might find someone better than her. And again, this could be paralyzing because there's never a there there. They're always looking for, worried about, am I choosing the right one? And also, men may be waiting for perfection. They may have a list of the things that they want in a woman, and they're waiting for to tick off every box. Well, she's got short hair rather than long hair.
Benjamin Shield:
They dismiss the person. And instead of embracing, expanding their field of what they may be attracted to, who they may be attracted to, they keep it narrow, and they may be avoidant. There may be other reasons, but they're waiting for that perfect person to come along. Like, their eyes will meet on an escalator. One's going up, one's going down in a rom.com. And there's conflict. Then they realize they're the perfect people for each other. But many men are waiting for that idealized perfection which may never exist only in his mind.
Lisa Shield:
Well, and that's all a smokescreen for not wanting to get emotionally naked. The hardest thing of all is to just be who you are and show someone who you are. And I think the biggest fear is if we have messed up relationships in the past, and we know that sometimes it was our fault. Like, we had blind spots. We didn't know what we didn't know. We're so afraid to let somebody really see who we are and to like somebody, to show that we like someone that we care about somebody. What if they don't like us back? Or what if we're not good enough? I mean, that's a big one. When I met you, I was so excited.
Lisa Shield:
But I also knew that everything I had done up until that point, all the work I'd done, that was as good as I was in that moment. And I just thought, he will either like me or he won't. I'll do the very best I can, and if I mess up, I'll try to clean it up as quickly as possible. I had learned at that point that even if I did miss the mark or make a mistake, I could clean up my, say, look, I apologize, and even take the initiative to say, I'm so sorry, or, I wasn't paying attention. And I can see that I hurt you. So I just learned how to clean things up and keep my side of the street clean. But it's so frightening for us. And it goes all the way again back to childhood and wanting to be liked and loved and not being loved unconditionally by our own parents.
Lisa Shield:
Your parents were really loving with you. Like, you were very fortunate that you had a mother and a father who adored you, where you could almost do no wrong. But I didn't get that.
Benjamin Shield:
You could do no right.
Lisa Shield:
I could do no right. That is true. I could do no right. So my walls for so much of my life were so thick. But I think that the hardest thing when we look at all of this, how would a woman navigate that? Honey, I know. For me, my solution to all of this was I really started to ask myself, who would I need to be in a relationship? How would I show up differently from other women with you or with a man where he would feel safe with me, where I wasn't needy or clingy or dramatic? I really got clear that if I had a problem or an issue, I'd go see a therapist rather than bring that into my relationship. But I thought about all the things or all the complaints that a man would have about a woman. And then I decided to be the opposite of that.
Lisa Shield:
And that didn't mean being a man. That wasn't the corollary, but it was being a woman who didn't suffocate and smother. And where I wasn't meaty or clingy, where I gave you space. Is that the answer?
Benjamin Shield:
Yes. And there's even more things we could add to that. That a man feeling constantly throughout the years that his masculinity is going to be mirrored back to him. That he's going to feel like a man. That his partner is caring. And there's a lot of playfulness and sensuality in the relationship. Ease, ease. Drama free.
Benjamin Shield:
Drama free. Forgiving, patient. Having unconditional love as much as one can do at any given moment. But being aware that that's the goal, that we're the lighthouse that we're always sailing towards.
Lisa Shield:
Beautiful. Well, honey, thank you again for sharing your wisdom and your heart and that beautiful smile of your. Thank you. I love you. All right, everybody, this has been getting inside the right male mind. We are so happy to spend this time with you. Thank you so much for listening. And I'm just going to run through these again.
Lisa Shield:
Men who have fear of commitment or hesitate to commit in relationships are not always avoidant or commitment phobic. Most men, probably all men, have some fear of commitment. A healthy fear of commitment or a healthy hesitancy to commit. And part of that would be because of his fear of losing freedom. Lack of good role models to show him what a good relationship with a woman would look like. Past relationship traumas, not being ready to settle down, timing. Sometimes a man is just not ready, no matter how fabulous you are. And finally, the fear of choosing wrong.
Lisa Shield:
There's so much choice today, and so many men are afraid to make a choice and make the wrong choice. Thank you again. I'm Lisa Shield.
Benjamin Shield:
And I'm Benjamin Shield.
Lisa Shield:
And this has been getting inside the right male mind. If you'd like to learn more about what we do, you can go to lisashield.com and click the button all over my website to view my free 45 minutes presentation. If you're sure that you'd like to sign up for a call now, you can do that. And you can do that by going to Lisashield. Whoopsie. I'm going to spell this right. Lisashield Comreserve. So that will take you right to the page where you can reserve.
Lisa Shield:
It'll take you right to a short application. You'll fill that out, and then you can book a free breakthrough call to learn more about what we do. You can send your requests for future podcast topics to podcast@lisashield.com and please tell everyone you know, your brothers and sisters, your aunts and uncles and nieces and nephews and your colleagues, your mom, your dad. Please spread the word and let people know about our podcast. You can find all of these episodes, and you can find all of my personal episodes under finding the guardian of your soul. I'm Lisa Shield. This is Benjamin, and we want to thank you again. Bye.